An appreciation of Rumi

I would love to kiss you.
The price of kissing is your life.

Now my love is running toward my life shouting,
What a bargain, let's buy it.

I replied to Advaita Das's post below with:
This subject is very subtle and difficult to make short work of. I appreciate that both are possible models for reality. Both sides of the argument have their favorite verses to quote that they feel bolster their argument. I am surprised that you missed two biggies that the inherent svarup school uses- Madhya.22.160-161.

160: kṛṣṇaḿ smaran janaḿ cāsya
preṣṭhaḿ nija-samīhitam
tat-tat-kathā-rataś cāsau
kuryād vāsaḿ vraje sadā
Here nija samihitam (of one's own choosing) being critical.

161: dāsa-sakhā-pitrādi-preyasīra gaṇa
rāga-mārge nija-nija-bhāvera gaṇana
And here nija nija is echoed.
If there was not a process of hearing and purifying through association with Vaishnavas these words would absolutely no meaning.

This totally agrees with:
“Love of Krishna is eternally perfect, it is never merely produced by sadhana – when the heart is purified by hearing and so, it arises.”

With regards to sadhana there is no practical difference between the one who subscribes to the inherent or gifted svarup models. This was confirmed by a senior traditional devotee who I can cite in private to you if you wish.
Secondly the school of inherent svarup are of the opinion that
1. no one gets bhakti without mercy of Vaishnava and Krsna.
2. no one gets back to Godhead with out diksa.
3. the ananda that is inherent in the svarup is not of the same quantity or quality of those nitya-siddha-jivas.The inherent school also asks, "if there are two kinds of tatastha sakti jivas, both missing the svarup, as you say, Nitya-Baddha and Nitya-Siddha,
did the nitya siddha tatastha sakti get bhakti lata bija and from whom? And when?
Their svarup must be intrinsic otherwise from where is it coming? Some choose Krsna-dasya and some come here. The one who did not choose Krsna came her and got contaminated and need the diksa.

Point 2:
Now, supposing the jiva who comes here gets bhakti lata bija according to your conception. Let us also suppose for whatever reason he does not attain to Krsna upon dying and takes birth in a human body. if the ananda has been infused into the jiva- he now has his svarup, there would be no necessity to take diksa again?!
But diksa is necessary always.
But if the ontology of the jiva has been fundamentaly altered with the external infusing of the svarup, why take again? This is unworkable.
Please excuse my lack of intelligence and quarrelsome nature.
Joy Sitanatha Prabhu!
Advaita Das replied with:
Interesting comment, Visnudas. However, of the two points:

"Some choose Krsna-dasya and some come here. The one who did not choose Krsna came her and got contaminated and need the diksa."

It seems here you erred, since there is no such siddhanta of Sadhu Shastra and Guru that we made a choice and came here (fall-vada).

"But diksa is necessary always.
But if the ontology of the jiva has been fundamentaly altered with the external infusing of the svarup, why take again? This is unworkable."

As far as I understood from my Guru-bari, the Guru comes back for the submissive disciple. That would almost certainly mean that the disciple gets diksa again. I know that there is a class of Vaishnavas that say that the bhakti lata bija means diksa and can be given just once, but to my knowledge there is no independent confirmation of that. Because in that case your theory would be unworkable.
..............................................
>I will work on a proper reply to Advaita as I was not satisfied with his reply and that is probably due to my lack of clarity and intellect.

Here is an ongoing discussion between Sriman Advaita Das, (a western-born but thouroughly traditional sisya of Sri Sadhu Baba (13th Generation from Sri Advaita Prabhu)) and myself.

On Saturday, August 18, 2007, Advaita Das posted:
Pure love for Krishna is not dormant within the heart, but is an external gift
There is a widespread theory among Western Vaishnavas that bhakti exists in a dormant state in the heart of the jiva. The upholders of this theory support their view by a verse from Caitanya Caritamrta, which runs as follows:

nitya-siddha krsna-prema 'sadhya' kabhu naya
sravanadi-suddha-citte karaye udaya

“Love of Krishna is eternally perfect, it is never merely produced by sadhana – when the heart is purified by hearing and so, it arises.”

However, the Caitanya Caritamrita (Madhya 19.151) says: brahmanda bhramite kon bhagyavan jiva, guru-krishna prasade pay bhakti-lata bija. “Wandering throughout the universe, some fortunate soul receives the seed of devotion, by the grace of Guru or Krishna.” Every word is significant here - kon means “some”, not that everyone gets it. pAy means 'he/she gets', not that it's intrinsic – it’s coming from outside. prasad means that it isn’t deserved, but is causeless grace. One cannot work in advance to attain it. Only in this way the verse nitya siddha krishna-prema sadhya kabhu noy can be understood. hladini is the missing ananda in the svarupa of the jiva and it is an external gift.
The verse nitya siddhasya bhavasya from the Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu (1.2.2, quoted just before the nitya siddha krishna-prema verse in the Caitanya Caritamrita) confirms this - this nitya siddha bhava is the goal, it is not to be achieved artificially. Jiva Goswami comments on B.R.S. 1.2.2: bhavasya sadhyatve kritrimatvat parama-purusarthatvabhavah syad ity asankyaha nityeti, bhagavac-chakti-visesa-vritti-visesatvenagre sadhayisyamanatvad iti bhavah, i.e. “If bhava is attained mechanically (kritrima means something that is not produced naturally or spontaneously) it cannot be the highest goal of life; in order to clear this doubt the verse says – nitya-siddhasya bhavasya. The meaning is that in the first place (agre) it happens by a special function of the Lord's potency“.
The word nitya siddha means nitya-siddha bhaktas according to Mukunda Goswami in his comment on this verse: nitya-siddha-bhaktesu suddha-sattva-visesa-rupataya sada vartamanasyatra svayam sphuranan na kritrimatva-sanka. atah sri-krishna-namadi na bhaved grahyam indriyaih [bha.ra.si. 1.2.234] iti vaksyamanatvat. sadhana-bhaktir eva na kritrima, kim uta bhavah – “The pure sattva which is ever present in the nitya siddha devotees manifests itself and thus should not be seen as artificial. This can be seen in verse 1.2.234, atah sri krishna namadi. Surely sadhana bhakti is not artificial, what to speak of bhava.”
Jiva Gosvami comments on that Bhakti Rasamrita Sindhu verse (1.2.234): sevonmukhe hiti. sevonmukhe bhagavat-svarupa-tan-nama-grahanaya pravritta ity arthah. hi prasiddhau. yatha mriga-sariram tyajato bharatasya varnitam. narayanaya haraye nama ity udaram hasyan mrigatvam api yah samudajahara [bha.pu. 5.14.45] iti. yatha ca gajendrasya jajapa paramam japyam prag-janmany anusiksitam [bha.pu. 8.3.1]) “Sevonmukhe means one becomes inclined to chant the holy name of the Lord. The examples of Bharata in the deer-body, and Gajendra the elephant are very famous in this regard. They had animal tongues, but since they had a desire to chant the name of Krishna, svayam eva sphuratyadah - all this became spontaneously manifest.”
Bhakti is svarupa-sakti and the jiva is tatastha sakti. Therefore, bhakti cannot be intrinsic to the jiva. ananda that comes with bhakti is a function of cic-chakti which manifests as sandhini, samvit and hladini. bhaktyananda is the hladini-aspect of cic-chakti. The Lord's ananda is two-fold according to Jiva Gosvami's Priti Sandarbha (66): svarupananda and svarupa-saktyananda. The Lord Himself is depending on svarupa-saktyananda (svarupa-saktyananda-rupa yadananda-paradhinah sri-bhagavan apiti). This ananda is bhakti.
The Sruti quite clearly says that ananda is not a property of the jiva: raso vai sah, rasam hy evayam labdhvanandi bhavati, “God is verily rasa. If one attains rasa, one becomes blissful“. Apart from that, in the anandamayadhikarana of Vedanta-sutras, the acaryas explain that the jiva is not anandamaya. In the tika to the sutra vikara-sabdan neti cen na pracuryat, our Baladeva Vidyabhusana refutes the idea that the word ananda-maya could be applied to the jiva (tasmad anandamayo na jivah), and this is the case also in the liberated state which means non-existence of suffering (na canandamaya-sabdena muktau duhkhapty-asadbhavaj jiva iti vacyam).
In addition, commenting on the definition of the jiva as cid-anandatmaka, Jiva Gosvami explains in Paramatma Sandarbha (29) that the jiva is not ananda in the proper sense of the word: duhkha-pratiyogitvena tu jnanatvam anandatvam ca ... anandatvam nirupadhi-premaspadatvena sadhayati. “Because the jiva is beyond misery it is said to be of the nature of consciousness and bliss ... The jiva attains bliss when it attains love of God.“ However, Jiva Goswami mentions the ananda of the jiva in Priti Sandarbha (Anu. 65): ato nataram jivasya svarupananda-rupa, atyanta-ksudratvat. He says that it is extremely minute. However, one has to understand the statement in connection with the previous one, i.e. that the ananda means just non-existence of misery.
If one argues “What about the verse jivera svarupa hoy krishnera nitya-dasa from Caitanya Caritamrita (Madhya 20.108)? How to explain that in the light of bhava not being inherent? The words nitya and svarupa also imply inherence, after all.”
The answer to that will be: “The verse jivera svarupa hoy krishnera nitya-dasa does not say that bhakti is inherent to the jiva. It just means that the jiva is a sakti of the Lord, and thus it is subordinate to Him who is the saktiman, the Owner of the sakti. This relationship is eternal. It never was and will never be different. The verses subsequent to this one in Caitanya Caritamrita make the point clearly.”

"The point “Bhakti is svarupa-sakti and the jiva is tatastha sakti. Therefore, bhakti cannot be intrinsic to the jiva.” was taken from Navadvip Das’ introduction to Bhakti Sandarbha, with thanks. Some of the quotes were contributed by Krishnadasa (that was more than a little help from my friend).